Bluejack ([info]bluujack) wrote,
@ 2009-01-13 14:21:00
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What is it about Israel?
You know, normally I don't rise to a patriotic defense of the Bush administration when they get a smackdown. For some reason I do have a soft spot in my heart for Condi, despite her lock-step death-march with the other doomed neocons. So, when she has a rough day on the international circuit I tend to be a little more sympathetic.

Still, my visceral response to Olmert's trash talking is a fairly jingoistic WTF??? You can't say that to us!

As far as I can tell, we're the only nation on Earth that has any sympathy at all for Israel anymore, and that sympathy seems a lot more strongly rooted in elected officials who concern themselves with the pro-Israeli vote than it does in actual everyday voters.

So, my question: what is it about Israel that can squander any public opinion advantage arising out of being bombed by terrorists faster even than the Bush administration, and at the same time alienate the hearts and minds of its only ally?

Is it arrogance?

Stupidity?

Some sort of local political necessity that is incomprehensible outside its own borders?

Or are Israeli leaders the same kind of jerks as the Hamas leaders and they should all be cut off from civilized society until they can play nice?

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[info]akirlu
2009-01-13 11:14 pm UTC (link)
In the fact that you use the phrase "being bombed by terrorists" lies a piece of the answer to your question. Israel only cares about the opinion of the US, and within the US, they expect to be able to control the flow of disinformation in their own favor.

Quick, in the past 8 years, how many Israelis have been killed by rocket attacks out of Gaza? In the same span, how many Palestinians have been killed by Israel? Hint: the first number is in single digits, while the second number is larger. By about 3 orders of magnitude.

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[info]jackwilliambell
2009-01-14 03:45 am UTC (link)
Quite honestly I think plain old nasty anti-semitism is alive and well, even among the liberal left.

Apart from that there is the whole 'does the nation of Israel have a right to exist' question, which can be considered separately from anti-semitism, but usually isn't. Personally I think the fact it does exist (and more functionally so than all of its neighbors, including Jordan) makes that question moot, putting those who make the claim otherwise back into the anti-semite camp.

So we are left with a functioning democracy made up mostly of people despised by just about everyone. Is it surprising that they are willing to use overwhelming force to defend themselves against attack? Even somewhat ineffectual attack? (Not to condone the behavior, instead pointing out that it is rooted in human nature.)

Sure, in a sane world someone would make certain that the strong guy didn't stomp the fuck out of the little prick who just kicked his shins. But that leads us to the real question: Who is going to be the cop, the judge, the lawmaker for the world?

Us? As in 'U.S.A.'?

Yeah, right...

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[info]jackwilliambell
2009-01-14 04:18 am UTC (link)
I just noticed that I didn't reply directly to your original question!

In short I think Israelis act that way for the same reason some people individually become antagonistic when everyone picks on them; they are tired of putting up with shit and figure the best defense is a good offense. In the process they don't notice that they are antagonizing even those who would be their friends.

Yes, I know you can't use single human behavior as a rule for entire nations. But as a metaphor i think it stands up. After all, haven't you known people like that? I sure have.

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[info]akirlu
2009-01-14 07:48 pm UTC (link)
It's always impressive to me the way people manage to use "anti-semitism" as an excuse not to bother to look at the facts with respect to Israel. Because it's pretty clear that you haven't looked at much in the way of facts here Jack. What other nation besides Israel do we stand idly by in support of when they commit war crimes in defiance of countless UN resolutions?

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[info]readherring
2009-01-14 04:02 pm UTC (link)
Israel's attack on Gaza has put ne into my own personal Twilight Zone, where I watch my liberal Jewish family and friends transform into extreme right wing anti-terrorism hawks, then listen to them assume that I'm completely on board with this insanity.

I can't talk about it much, because if I do, I'll wind up getting totally sucked in, and I just don't have the time for that.

But to give you as quick of an answer as I can, Israel is stuck in a victim complex, and they rationalize some really stupid things by using that viewpoint. Whether they are morally in the right or not over Gaza, the invasion was supremely stupid because it won't work. We've spent the last 5 years in Iraq proving that overwhelming military assault creates more terrorists than it destroys. I doubt that blowing up your neighbor is going to stop rocket attacks, when hand-held launchers are easily smuggled in and there are now even more people willing to send them to the Gazans.

But the big error will become apparent in 10-15 years. Israel's influence on the Western world will drop sharply for 3 big reasons:

1. Virtually all of the Holocaust survivors will have passed away by then. Although most Americans don't immediately associate Israel with the Holocaust, many Europeans still do. And the Israeli government still gets some mileage off of Holocaust guilt.

2. Muslim population in the US is growing significantly (I've seen projections between 6 and 14% yearly) while Jewish population growth is fairly stagnant. In 2001, there were 1.1 million Muslims in the U.S. and 2.8 million Jews. Muslim population growth is mainly attributed to immigration, and the Muslims coming to this country are mainly well-educated, upper middle class. Every year, they get more involved in our politics. It won't be long before the Israeli PAC loses their stranglehold on our government.

3. By 2020, the Middle East won't contain enough oil to sustain us. Either we will have moved to alternate energies, or we will just be sitting in dead cars with dried out tanks. Either way, sustaining a foothold in that reigon will no longer be a vital part of our national interest. America will stop dumping money on Israel.

So Israel has two options right now - either make real peace with their neighbors now while they still can negotiate from power, or be the precocious kid on the block that gets away with being a total asshole to everyone because everyone is afraid of his older brother. And that precocious kid never thinks about what will happen when his brother moves away.

Israel is currently choosing the latter.

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